We need heavy buff on offense side now, defense is overpowered

[Manifesto]

To the people complaining about defense being too overpowered, have you considered that the more people progress, the better they get at designing a good base?
I have 2 layouts: one when I used to hoard my rss and oil, which I hardly use these days, and another one which gives away free resources.
Have you considered that not only are you up against strong defenses but ALSO people who don't want you to steal their stuff? If everyone put all their walls in a corner and left all their resources in the opposite corner, would you still be complaining about defenses being OP?
I imagine the same people complaining are the ones with upgraded traps, upgraded walls, compartmentalized bases, and low farms and caravans.
Be f^cking realistic. It's a simple concept: you want what someone has and they'll try and stop you from getting it.
Get it?

 

[Manifesto]

I remember those threads.
My brits boys remember them too, and they're still angry!

 

[Mcnasty]

Stop complaining about defences being too buffed and learn to attack better. I put time into research to get my defences up just like I put time into research to get my troops buffed up. I’ve also learned how to use my defences properly to protect my base. Just like I’ve learned how to attack better. Maybe your troop layout sucks or maybe you just don’t know what to do with what you got. I’ve smashed higher opponents because of strategy. Adapt and learn is how you progress. Not too long ago people were complaining that attack was too buffed. Now defences are. There will never be a happy medium because of 3 things.
1- research. Some people swear by it and some don’t.
2-knowledge. Some people learn some don’t
3- adapting. Some people do and some don’t.
the best part about this is there’s another thread about how decoy needs to be nerfed. Isn’t that an attack tactic. There’s more important things they need to focus on other then this.

 

[Touchpad Warrior]

Interesting discussion. Since 90% of the players are not end game, meaning maxed stuff, there will always be issues. And those will depend on your upgrade path.

For me, as a low global age player, the issue right now is really not being able to use the heavy tank strat on the level of players I want to loot (or any other composition that raid without heavy losses, really). So I'm working on getting my tanks buffed to the point I can implement the strategy I want on my attacks. I've got no complain on defenses right now mainly because I know I'm behind and there's always have a bigger fish. I try to coincide my victory chests with 2k+ medals, dropping a bit right after to get back on farm because I know when I'm 2k+ medal I'll get attacked regardless of my defense level. I struggle to get all the diamonds and NTG to participate in my guild wars but that's temporary I hope!

 

[Radzeer]

HI there... Finally a thread where there is something to read.
Great posts KniferX and yemen...

Kind of end game player here - having a nearly maxed CWA and and AA account - did all the grinding for them myself...

The most important point in my opinion is, that this game is - and should be - about attacking. Until this makes fun, all the players will stay and play, as soon as attacking gets boring (too easy, or too hard) the players will leave.
You simply cannot start the game (I mean log in) and start defending. You log in to attack, and attack again until you have troops/army ready.
As KniferX correctly pointed out - if you would like to take part in the "most exciting feature of the game" - in WW, you need to get the ntgs and the mercs, and preferably some troop cards, to make your attack(s) count, and you need ntg, and preferably troop cards for making the opponents attacks void on your base.

As ntgs are mainly gained from 5 star attacks the MP attacks aimed to get the 5 star victories needs to be executed with as low as possible losses in troops, planes, tactics & mercs, as you don't want to wait 1 hour to get your army ready for the next one. Efficiency is the key here, so we are attacking in MP way below our level (unless there is a high push to get exactly that desired ntg...).

Just for illustration: My CWA account had 0 full force attacks in the last 6 months, while my AA account had the last one 2 months ago.

We can put it like this: Above lvl 200 the defenses are upgraded for WW and not for MP anymore, with a slight exception - for protecting your oil refinery. Having this in mind decoupling the ww base from the mp base would be a viable option, and the defensive coalitions are doing exactly that. But as the fun part of the game is in attacking - many of us like the offensive coals more... For those then the ww and the mp base defenses are equal - even the mp base can be tougher with the defensive blessings.

So there is the task: the designer should make it possible (for a skilled attacker) to get the 5 stars in ww against an opponent on the similar level with the usage of all your tactics and full mercs, This works quite fine here, maybe until lvl 230-240, It is definitely way harder against a proper 250+ base with full defensive coalitions (even if you have full O coals).
As in MP you will not use mercs and rarely use tactics - there is no way you will be consciously attacking a base of your level with a 5 star army. You are simply not doing it as there are enough weaker bases to get the loot or ntgs from.
So either you are attacking weaker bases (in mp) or you are attacking similar,or a bit higher level bases (in ww). The first one is not much fun, if you ask me, but we do it for the fun element available in the later.

Now back to the question discussed here: Do we need weaker defenses or more powerful offense?
In ww not really. I think there is a certain balance there right now.
In mp yes. It would greatly boost the fun element in the area which is used 90% of the time the players spend in this game.

How this could be achieved?
A few options in my mind:
Manipulate with mp attack blessings (new blessing for making sure your troops are retrained immediately after the battle, cheaper tactic training bessing, etc)
Reinstate the single tactic slot for the protect, sabotage and betrayal tactics and decrease the training time for tactics
Buff/modify some of the unused troops statistics (increase the range of machine gunners, modify the stats of the copters, introduce a trainable spy, buff the standard tank's dps,etc)
Generals/mercs - if survived should be available for the next battle the same way as the hurt troops. The healing of gens or loss of mercs should be valid only for ww attacks.

As you see these suggestions are mostlyfor boosting mp attacking in a way that it can be more like in a ww - where I think the defense and offense is mostly balanced out.

 

[Dvicious]

I like your post Radzeer. It's well thought out, clearly written and I agree with most of it. However, I have one question regarding your suggestion for MP battles.

If generals and mercs (even maybe troop cards) that survived were immediately avaliable for the next battle do you think that would change who you or most people would attack. I would probably still search out the low level or rushed bases with high resources and just beat them even easier/fewer troop losses. While this would be fun for the attack part the defence would be impossible. As a newer global age player I cringe to think of a CWA attack with mercs and generals added also. They would lose no troops. As it is even with full losses on my end i take pleasure if i can take out a HT or a few fighters.

In WW i stretch to attack as high as possible to help team. In MP there is no such pressure. I would just seek max loot or easy NTGs.

long story short: Its hard to balance both WW and MP battles

 

[Manifesto]

I get the options you propose but if, as you said, most people are attacking bases in mp lower than themselves, why do we still need to buff offences/nerf defenses?
I have no trouble getting rss I need by attacking lower players. If someone chooses to attack a player of equal or higher strength, that’s their decision.

 

[Radzeer]

One of the things both you guys Dvicious and Manifesto seems to ignore is the time we are losing in this game (when gunning for a viable opponent) with skipping when searching. The number of skipped opponents should be drastically decreased by getting your full force "more usable" in mp.

 

[KniferX]

Manifesto That's the point and the crux of the problem. From all these buffs, especially the recent missile silo inclusion, MP gameplay has devolved into mindless skipping and searching abandoned and easy bases to supply yourself NTGs for war necessities. No incentives or bonuses, only downsides, to doing a full attack on even a moderately upgraded base.
​​​​And then you have to do 10+ of these mindless attacks every day or two just to stay relevant in war (again, you cannot ignore a 52% boost in any war that's not a blatant mismatch)
I think a lot of players will find this pattern familiar:
next..next..next..deploy army...periodically send planes...next...next...next...next...deploy army... et infinitum.
And how could I forget, wasting a lot of time dropping medals as well...
And this will only become worse with time as rushed bases get to upgrading their defenses, meaning even more next-ing.

​​​​​Along with changes proposed in Radzeer's excellent post, I'd like to propose more bonuses to attacking an upgraded player. Something like more NTGs and diamonds rewarded while attacking these upgraded bases. It doesn't make any sense that a rushed base would give out equal NTG and diamond rewards as a fully upgraded base.
​​​​​​​Or just make the league and victory chests less of a joke to make it actually worthwhile to go for high leagues at some point, to be able to keep up with NTG requirements through those prizes.

 

[Dvicious]

Good point, but I still think i would waste that time to cherrypick easier ops when gathering loot. I spend FAR more time trying to find ANY german or korean bases i need for ntgs.

 

[SiuYin]

HI there... Finally a thread where there is something to read.
Great posts KniferX and yemen...

Kind of end game player here - having a nearly maxed CWA and and AA account - did all the grinding for them myself...

The most important point in my opinion is, that this game is - and should be - about attacking. Until this makes fun, all the players will stay and play, as soon as attacking gets boring (too easy, or too hard) the players will leave.
You simply cannot start the game (I mean log in) and start defending. You log in to attack, and attack again until you have troops/army ready.
As KniferX correctly pointed out - if you would like to take part in the "most exciting feature of the game" - in WW, you need to get the ntgs and the mercs, and preferably some troop cards, to make your attack(s) count, and you need ntg, and preferably troop cards for making the opponents attacks void on your base.

As ntgs are mainly gained from 5 star attacks the MP attacks aimed to get the 5 star victories needs to be executed with as low as possible losses in troops, planes, tactics & mercs, as you don't want to wait 1 hour to get your army ready for the next one. Efficiency is the key here, so we are attacking in MP way below our level (unless there is a high push to get exactly that desired ntg...).

Just for illustration: My CWA account had 0 full force attacks in the last 6 months, while my AA account had the last one 2 months ago.

We can put it like this: Above lvl 200 the defenses are upgraded for WW and not for MP anymore, with a slight exception - for protecting your oil refinery. Having this in mind decoupling the ww base from the mp base would be a viable option, and the defensive coalitions are doing exactly that. But as the fun part of the game is in attacking - many of us like the offensive coals more... For those then the ww and the mp base defenses are equal - even the mp base can be tougher with the defensive blessings.

So there is the task: the designer should make it possible (for a skilled attacker) to get the 5 stars in ww against an opponent on the similar level with the usage of all your tactics and full mercs, This works quite fine here, maybe until lvl 230-240, It is definitely way harder against a proper 250+ base with full defensive coalitions (even if you have full O coals).
As in MP you will not use mercs and rarely use tactics - there is no way you will be consciously attacking a base of your level with a 5 star army. You are simply not doing it as there are enough weaker bases to get the loot or ntgs from.
So either you are attacking weaker bases (in mp) or you are attacking similar,or a bit higher level bases (in ww). The first one is not much fun, if you ask me, but we do it for the fun element available in the later.

Now back to the question discussed here: Do we need weaker defenses or more powerful offense?
In ww not really. I think there is a certain balance there right now.
In mp yes. It would greatly boost the fun element in the area which is used 90% of the time the players spend in this game.

How this could be achieved?
A few options in my mind:
Manipulate with mp attack blessings (new blessing for making sure your troops are retrained immediately after the battle, cheaper tactic training bessing, etc)
Reinstate the single tactic slot for the protect, sabotage and betrayal tactics and decrease the training time for tactics
Buff/modify some of the unused troops statistics (increase the range of machine gunners, modify the stats of the copters, introduce a trainable spy, buff the standard tank's dps,etc)
Generals/mercs - if survived should be available for the next battle the same way as the hurt troops. The healing of gens or loss of mercs should be valid only for ww attacks.

As you see these suggestions are mostlyfor boosting mp attacking in a way that it can be more like in a ww - where I think the defense and offense is mostly balanced out.

I don't agree the part about WW

Upgrading defense take much longer time than offense, as result, most players got a lower defense level compare.

It is common that a player with defensive level 2 or 3 age behind.

So most people dont have a right judgement of defensive strange, they do not realized that, even they are fighting with an atomic / cwa players, their defense could still in Industrial / early global.

A simple mapping, defensive strength for a AA / CWA player
LV 200 : Industrial age
LV 220 : early global age
LV 230 : late global age
LV 250: late atomic age
LV 270 : CWA

Keep in mind that, when you feel difficult facing a player with lv 200+, he is very likely IA / early global defense,
In other word, you are in difficulty facing defense level 2 age below in MP,

and for WW, it is much worse, even with full force, it still an impossible mission to destroy a full upgraded CWA base.

if dont stop the trend, you will find even harder after active players upgraded into late global / early atomic defense. and most of base become unbeatable in top alliance war

 

[Manifesto]

Manifesto That's the point and the crux of the problem. From all these buffs, especially the recent missile silo inclusion, MP gameplay has devolved into mindless skipping and searching abandoned and easy bases to supply yourself NTGs for war necessities. No incentives or bonuses, only downsides, to doing a full attack on even a moderately upgraded base.
​​​​And then you have to do 10+ of these mindless attacks every day or two just to stay relevant in war (again, you cannot ignore a 52% boost in any war that's not a blatant mismatch)
I think a lot of players will find this pattern familiar:
next..next..next..deploy army...periodically send planes...next...next...next...next...deploy army... et infinitum.
And how could I forget, wasting a lot of time dropping medals as well...
And this will only become worse with time as rushed bases get to upgrading their defenses, meaning even more next-ing.

​​​​​Along with changes proposed in Radzeer's excellent post, I'd like to propose more bonuses to attacking an upgraded player. Something like more NTGs and diamonds rewarded while attacking these upgraded bases. It doesn't make any sense that a rushed base would give out equal NTG and diamond rewards as a fully upgraded base.
Or just make the league and victory chests less of a joke to make it actually worthwhile to go for high leagues at some point, to be able to keep up with NTG requirements through those prizes.

I was thinking along the same lines myself. Would we be having this conversation if rewards were more rewarding? I don’t think so.
As Radzeer pointed out, 90% of people raid bases lower than themselves in mp. Why? Because they’re easier to beat. If anyone chooses to attack an equivalent or stronger base then it should be hard to beat that base.
But the rewards are pathetic and the grind is hard, so frustration sets in and people complain that defence is overpowered. This is misdirected anger at not being able to get decent rewards. The defenses are not the problem, The poor rewards are.
Like I asked in an earlier post: if everyone put all their walls in one corner and all rss in the opposite corner, would we still be complaining? I doubt it.
I like that my defenses are strong at my level and so it should be. If I choose to attack someone higher than me I should expect to use gens, merc, cards, but I would want the rewards to be 3-4 diamonds, 4-5 NTGs, 8-10 fur, etc.
If the people complaining that it’s too hard to get rss from stronger bases than you, boo hoo. Be smart and raid lower bases.
If the people complaining that it’s unrewarding to get the current rewards when you beat a strong base, think about what your anger is for. Clearly you can beat the strong base, so your offense is up to the task, but your argument should be about the poor rewards, NOT the defenses.

 

[Pepyto]

We don't need to buff offense, we just need oppotunity in MP to make every attack- full attack, so:
- time reduction for training tactics n planes
- time reduction for generals recovery
- blessings for all 3
and everything will be just fine

 

[cos_pi]

Where will we get so much cider for TDs?

 

[_Flash_]

Looks like Radzeer has addressed that in his well thought out post: "So either you are attacking weaker bases (in mp) or you are attacking similar,or a bit higher level bases (in ww). The first one is not much fun, if you ask me, but we do it for the fun element available in the later."
This is where some buffing up of offensive capabilities in multiplayer would make the game more fun. Attacking lower players in MP becomes a grind. Me and many others enjoy the attacking aspect of this game more than anything else. That's why some balancing of offensive capabilities would help the game.

 

[yemen]

The time changes I can see making pretty easily (although I don't think Nexon will do it). But the trade goods would have to be radically changed to allow blessings and mercenaries to be used more often. Cost reduced, and maybe gathering them be free? Even then, I can't see them being used on regular attacks, and those TDs are a big piece of my war strategy.

 

[Saruman the White]

80 more troop space is too much. But I wouldn't say no to a small buff in offensive

 

[Saruman the White]

Perhaps if they returned all tactics to 1 space? Or a small demolition buff, or expertise demolition vs defensive structures? Just giving some ideas...

 

[Jarl Bobi]

If this was true than why did our last war end with both teams getting perfect score? You can 5 any base if you have similar strength base and you can play the game good. I think the game is well balanced at the moment and offense definitely doesn’t need a boost, in fact defense may need to be boosted a little to prevent so many wars ending in a draw. Ultimately the game difficulty is the same for everyone and a maxed out base should be damn hard to 5 if you ask me, It’s not like every base is maxed. Make 290star bases easy to 5 and your typical 230star cwa base will be a joke you walk through with nothing but infantry and this is not a game I’d like to play.

 

[Bootney Lee Fonsworth]

Indeed. I can't wait for the next age with the same predictable loot penalties. Imagine the thrill of attacking level 200+ gold walled atomics for the equivalent of enlightenment age loot! Now imagine having to do that nearly 100 times for a single 16,000,000 food or nearly 200 times for a 275,000 oil upgrade. Won't that be fun?

Without a significant increase in offense, an uncoupling of war and multiplayer defense or a reduction in training time, multiplayer raiding will die a slow death. And without the various resources obtained from 5 star multiplayer raiding so will wars but for a handful of alliances. This game has gotten too hardcore for its own good.