NATION DEBATE! Wooo

[Skad34]

Which nation do you think is the best (please justify) Personally I'm Greek and the companion is still OP even after the nerf, and the refund will come in handy in enlightenment

 

[MackemSLAM]

Right now I would say the extra unit capacity of the Romans combined with the legions makes them the strongest. Once the industrial age drops and tanks become so powerful this will probably tip the balance to Greece and France.

 

[DestroyerArcher]

As I use only a few raiders per battle, I use british.

 

[mwedwards]

Hm, ok I'll bite (also a Greek player). Please help me understand how the Companion is OP. Looking at each civ's unit bonuses (enl.), we have:

Greek: Stradioti vs standard heavy cav: 7500 vs 7128 HP, 270 vs 224 DMG
France: Hussar vs std. cav: 7800 vs 7128 HP, 258 vs 224 DMG
Ger. & Jap.: Special vs std. fusilier: 264 vs 200 DMG (Ger. gets 290 DMG after a victory)
Roma: Special vs std. fusilier: 488 vs 390 HP
Brit: Yeoman vs std. musketeer: 36 vs 31 DMG, Chinese: 38 vs 31 DMG.

So the Greek unit brings an added 372 HP and 46 DMG
French brings an added 672 HP and 38 DMG
Ger. & Jap. brings added 64 DMG (Ger. brings added 90 DMG after a victory)
Roma brings an added 98 HP
Brit brings an added 5 DMG, plus 1 range, Chinese bring added 7 DMG.

As a Greek player I typically bring 12 companions, so I'll use that number here as some use more and others less. The infantry-focused civs will often bring in 90-100 of their special unit. So multiplying the above numbers by 12 and 100, we get the following benefits:

Greek: Added 4464 HP, and 552 DMG.
French: Added 8064 HP, and 456 DMG
Ger. & Jap: Added 6400 DMG (Ger. added 9000 after a victory)
Roma: Added 9800 HP (10780 if you add 10 more units)
Brit: Added 500 DMG, Chinese added 700 DMG.

(These numbers are taken directly from http://dominations.wikia.com/wiki/Troops, and don't include wonder/library bonuses that would be available to all civs.)

The British and Roman units are the only units that brings an additional ability (+1 range and +10% capacity), and German receive 10% for all units, not just their Infantry. Numerically, it would appear Greek and British/Chinese units are at the lowest rungs on the ladder in terms of the advantage they bring to the table here. What am I missing? At first I figured you might be thinking of your experience with Companions in Classical and Medieval ages, but their comparative advantages are even less during those ages, and any civ can bring heavy cav and achieve similar results during those ages. My experience during late gunpowder and early enlightenment has been that heavy cav (Greek or otherwise) are not the units you want at the core of your army. If you meant to say that heavy cav in general are OP in earlier ages, I might understand that (not really, see below), but to say that Companions are OP in general just doesn't make sense looking at the numbers.

Now to get up on my soapbox: this is a wargame with an extremely expensive nation building component. In the hands of an elite player, all nations should be *capable* of 5-starring every equal or lesser base, every time, with no more than 20% losses, without consumable items like mercenaries, blessings or tactics, which are available to help when attacking higher level bases. If we can't have that, the cost of upgrades should be reduced significantly. Nerfing any unit has only one important effect: it takes longer to accumulate resources, creating more pressure to buy crowns. Looking at it from this perspective, the notion of OP really only has any meaning where a unit allows an *unskilled* player to 5-star the base of an equivalent-level elite player with no effort. Greek cav have _never_ been able to do that.

 

[Jo-jo]

Very well put, mwedwards.

 

[hearthpad]

mwedwards is the exact reason why you have to be careful with what you read on the internet
those numbers are not correct

enlightenment age cav
standard cav = 6480 HP
standard cav + versailles / chivalry= 7128 HP
Standard cav + versailles and chivalry = 7841

French cav = 7800
French cav + versailles = 8580
French cav + versailles and chivalry = 9438

Greek cav = 7500 HP
Greek cav + versailles = 8250
Greek cav + versailles and chivalry = 9075

They are much better than standard, not to mention more damage
The French have 1500 more HP FFS

 

[This game is laggy]

@Skad34 @mwedwards Is the 5% refund working for walls? A few users have reported that it only works when you upgrade 2 pieces of wall at the same time?

 

[mwedwards]

mwedwards is the exact reason why you have to be careful with what you read on the internet
those numbers are not correct

enlightenment age cav
standard cav = 6480 HP
standard cav + versailles / chivalry= 7128 HP
Standard cav + versailles and chivalry = 7841

French cav = 7800
French cav + versailles = 8580
French cav + versailles and chivalry = 9438

Greek cav = 7500 HP
Greek cav + versailles = 8250
Greek cav + versailles and chivalry = 9075

They are much better than standard, not to mention more damage
The French have 1500 more HP FFS

Maybe I need to be careful what I read on the internet. These numbers are taken directly from http://dominations.wikia.com/wiki/Troops. For the most part they seem accurate based on what I've seen in-game, so I went ahead and trusted the whole thing. Thanks for the clarification, but as Versailles and the Library techs are available to all civs and all units, the differences you point out are irrelevant to the thesis of my post.

 

[mwedwards]

@Skad34 @mwedwards Is the 5% refund working for walls? A few users have reported that it only works when you upgrade 2 pieces of wall at the same time?

I have not upgraded any wall segments since the update, partially because resources are harder to accumulate and the benefit is so disproportionate to the cost (I'm at level 8 & 9 walls already).

 

[Redgar]

I am looking forward to IA where french/greek tanks will be quite strong while ranged british/chinese units may get new AI to attack any target. So the balance may shift a bit in favor of those nations. By this moment, nations with ranged units can't build core army based on their uniques and it is some sort of imbalance imo. So I would rate 1) romans 2-3) japan-french 4) greek 5-6) chinese-brits

 

[Redgar]

Good post. I'd argue that With the latest attack nerf you can deal with correct max enlightement defense without mercs, etc and loosing just 20% of the army, no matter what skills you have. I don't have cannons and enlightement HC yet, but even smart max GP defense brings issues if you're not using tactics or blessings. 90% of cases I am saving healer and bombards, but army restore varies from 7-10 mins.

 

[Rahdiculous]

Dont forget Germans, they have 10% damage boost after a victory, which is quite easy. They also have MUCH better rally strength and duration than other nations. It makes the difference when you need to get rid of a cannon/ballista/Redoubt quicker. Sure no economical benefit, but you're raids will be easier with the Germans.

 

[zeues]

None is the best

 

[mwedwards]

Dont forget Germans, they have 10% damage boost after a victory, which is quite easy. They also have MUCH better rally strength and duration than other nations. It makes the difference when you need to get rid of a cannon/ballista/Redoubt quicker. Sure no economical benefit, but you're raids will be easier with the Germans.

Excellent point. After a victory, a German army with a core of Infantry would be capable of bringing over 9000 additional damage to the next attack (over 10000 with wonder & library upgrades). This easily puts them ahead of Japan in the offensive ranking...

 

[hearthpad]

Maybe I need to be careful what I read on the internet. These numbers are taken directly from http://dominations.wikia.com/wiki/Troops. For the most part they seem accurate based on what I've seen in-game, so I went ahead and trusted the whole thing. Thanks for the clarification, but as Versailles and the Library techs are available to all civs and all units, the differences you point out are irrelevant to the thesis of my post.

your "thesis" states the follow "Greek: Stradioti vs standard heavy cav: 7500 vs 7128 HP, 270 vs 224 DMG"

those numbers are not correct. and your "reference" even states that the standard cav has 6480 HP
that itself is 1000 HP standard difference (as shown in my post correcting yours), which escalates further with the bonuses i presented

and your thesis is stupid

 

[DestroyerArcher]

Maybe I need to be careful what I read on the internet. These numbers are taken directly from http://dominations.wikia.com/wiki/Troops. For the most part they seem accurate based on what I've seen in-game, so I went ahead and trusted the whole thing. Thanks for the clarification, but as Versailles and the Library techs are available to all civs and all units, the differences you point out are irrelevant to the thesis of my post.

Unboosted German/Japanese infantry have 240 attack. Unboosted fusiliers have 200 attack. This makes the comparison of junkers/ashigarus against fusiliers a bit less impressive.

 

[Redgar]

Yes, I totally forgot about Germans ))) Besides still OP Romans, there is a lot to consider if you want to be original and future oriented in choosing among France, Japan and Germany. Personally, I'd probably would go with France, because HC will become tanks and it's going to be a must-have unit anyways, while all other France nations bonuses are attack-oriented and useful. Germans might be an option for elite players racing for medals, but still soldiers die very fast, so I doubt it could bring you more raids/less army losses e.g. in comparison to France. If you like soldiers/protection attack strategy, Japan may be a well-balanced option. Anyways, I haven't seen any nice videos showing germans attacks, so we all should ask BambooCoC to switch

 

[Skad34]

Yeah I agree with you on the tanks part. Industrial Age will give us rare Greeks a much needed edge after the nerf

 

[mwedwards]

Unboosted German/Japanese infantry have 240 attack. Unboosted fusiliers have 200 attack. This makes the comparison of junkers/ashigarus against fusiliers a bit less impressive.

These stats can change at a moment's notice, often with no communication from the publisher. It would be helpful to have someone with a jailbroken device regularly post the config files so we know what's actually in the game at any given moment, not having to rely on the in-game interface which is extremely limited and only reports the current stats in effect, net of wonders, techs, etc.

 

[Skad34]

Imagine what new nations will bring to the table - Egyptians with semi HC chariots that are ranged?!